Talk:1755 Lisbon earthquake

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Brava Muriel!

Masterful job Muriel! The combination of the historical and geological angles is truly superb. Wikipedia is lucky to have you here! -- Viajero 09:42, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

  • Thank you! I'm blushing a bit... Muriel Gottrop 11:14, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Tidal wave

Hi, According to the American Heritage Dictionary (4th ed), tidal wave also means tsunami. Why use a fancy Japanese word when we have a plain English one? -- Viajero 21:00, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Because the "fancy Japanese word" is more precise and more accurate - although it doesn't really matter all that much, since tidal wave redirects to tsunami (see either link for details). -- Jredmond 21:12, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Excuse me, but who are you to say what is more precise and more accurate? We are not talking about mathematics here, this is human language, something that changes and evolves continuously. My (corpus-based) dictionary says they mean the same thing. That's fine. We'll use Tsunami instead, since you like it better. I just didn't care for your snide Summary comment. -- Viajero 11:57, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I apologize for my tone, but the article for tsunami does mention that the term "tidal wave" is often incorrectly applied to tsunamis. Good point about the lack of precision in language; if nothing else, the use of "tsunami" is more consistent with other articles. Again, sorry about the tone. -- Jredmond 14:52, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)
And i think that tsunami is more international: Tidal wave in portuguese, for instance, is tsunami! Muriel Gottrop 14:58, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

query: reference to Marquis of Pombal

The reference to Marquis of Pombal seems ambiguous:

Priests of the Inquisition roamed the city, rounding up "heretics" and hanging them on the spot for angering God. This gave the Marquis of Pombal, the de facto ruler of Portugal, the excuse to start an all-out struggle against the Jesuits.

Was he surpressing the Jesuits for hanging people? Or did he also use the earthquake as an excuse to surpress the Jesuits. (I assume the latter). Perhaps this could be disambiguated. Viajero 14:11, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

  • The Marquis' hatred to the Jesuits is well known historically. Why? Because they were aligned with the high nobility which he despised and vice-versa. One Jesuit, Gabriel Malagrida, was the confessor of the Marquis' arch-enemy: the marquioness of Tavora. I wrote the Tavora affair about what happened next. Perhaps we could put there more emphasis on what happened to the Jesuits. Cheers, Muriel Gottrop 16:48, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • And i'm planning to expand this article, so stay tooned for possible discussions... Muriel

FYI, Susan Nieman treats the Lisbon quake and (on a few pages) Pombal in her Evil In Modern Thought. I have yet to read it, but in an as-yet-unpublished review of this book, Edward T. Oakes, SJ, writes that Pombal "even had a Jesuit preacher of the old Sodom-and-Gomorrah style arrested on trumped-up charges and executed an Enlightenment version of an auto-da-f�! For to his mind, it was precisely the old theological interpretation[namely, that disasters were punishments for the peoples' sins -KJJ] that was preventing the authorities from addressing a natural catastrophe on natural terms." --KJJ 15:56, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

Finland?

Tsunamis up to twenty meters in height swept the coast from North Africa to Finland and across the Atlantic to Martinique and Barbados. Finland? Look on a map; that's unreasonable. It should perhaps be Norway? -FredrikM

Hanging priests allegation

  • FOOTNOTES, PLEASE!! I have requested this several times.

Where is your source for the allegation that "priests roamed the city hanging people suspected of heresy on sight"? I say it never happened, and that this is a total distortion of what really happened in the aftermath of the tsunami of 1755. Since this allegation has been in the news recently, virtually plaguerized by many writers from CBS News to The Washington Post, it is important that you at least show some respected historical evidence for this allegation. Otherwise, it would seem that this is just another false charge that was leveled against the much maligned Jesuits of the time, and carried over into today.

  • You wrote: "Jesus! Then remove the allegation. Its not my essay, it's our (like in me, you and everybody else here) article. muriel@pt 13:23, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)."

There is no need to take the Lord's Name. Yes, I disagree vehemently with the allegation, but am asking that the writer cite their source - as it states clearly on the Edit Page: "Please cite your sources so others can check your work." I have been checking into the truth of this allegation, and have others doing so, yet can find nothing at all. It is like trying to prove a negative. I assert, then, that it was simply made up, and never happened. I am not going to change it - I am simply going to leave it for all to read, that the writer cited no source, because no source exists except within the writer's mind.

  • Dear anon user, if you disagree with the article in some way, you are invited to change it. muriel@pt 13:25, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • I lookes into it, the sentence in question is a relic of the first version, i didnt write it. If you dont want to remove it, dont complain then. And you should sign your comments typing 4 ~. All the best, muriel@pt 19:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
  • I do not believe it is "complaining" to ask that a source to be cited, especially in a serious charge such as "priests roamed the city hanging people suspected of heresy on sight." What I believe is that there is a serious, anti-Catholic bias to the unattributed statement. And there is reason to complain about that! Theresa.
  • As you said, the "sentence in question is a relic of the first version, I didn't write it." No, you didn't write it. But when a question was posed by user Viajero on Nov. 2, 2003, you did not hesitate to answer.

"Was he surpressing the Jesuits for hanging people? Or did he also use the earthquake as an excuse to surpress the Jesuits. (I assume the latter). Perhaps this could be disambiguated. Viajero 14:11, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Rather than question the truth of this preposterous claim, you answered the question, giving credence to the unattributed allegation, as though it were true. I am still asking for a credible source for this allegation, posted on this site since October of 2003, with no source cited. Theresa (user polycarp7).

  • Dear Theresa, welcome to wikipedia! Thank you for your opinions about the earthquake. Again, if you dont like a part of an article and you have good reasons, you are more than welcome to make the change. As i said, i dont have a reference though i dont find the allegation strange, considering the power of the Jesuits at the time and the religious fanatism of the time. I didnt mean to insult any belief by mentioning Jesus and i'm sorry if i did so. Tip: you can sign your comments by typing 4 tildas (~). Cheers, muriel@pt 09:32, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)


  • Dear Murial: Statements such as "the power of the jesuits" and "religious fanaticism" reflect bias and a lack of objectivity, and have nothing to do with the truth. Regardless of one's biased opinions about the devout Catholicism of the Portugese people, and the Jesuits' dedication to spreading the Gospel , the fact remains that no priests were running around hanging people after the Lisbon disaster. And unless a source for such an extreme allegation can be cited, it should not be included in any article. Do a Google search for the phrase you call a "relic" and you will see how many articles have been written that include this fabrication. There is even an anti-Catholic home-school curriculum, published in 2004, that has included the information, with Wikipedia footnoted. Even more have been written, and picked up in newspapers across the country, and sermons preached, since the South Asia disaster. There is a such thing as "justice" and it opposes justice to write things about people that cannot be verified in ANY credible reference or eye-witness account. I realize you didn't write the line, but your leaving the line in based not on any facts but your own feelings has caused a serious injustice and taints an otherwise very WELL DONE article you have done on the Lisbon disaster. I respect your dedication to this project, but I ask only that you try to understand the injustice that has been done. There are many very scholarly and learned historians who would not characterize the jesuits of that time as do you. Polycarp7 04:53, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)


FWIW, About.com has a picture of hangings in the aftermath of the earthquake, with the commentary Signs of crime, disorder, and disease are evident, and criminals are being hanged under the supervision of soldiers and priests. I suspect that the crimes involved were looting and suchlike rather than heresy, however. Mark1 03:46, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


  • Yes, About.com has a picture, which is now found in the 1755 Lisbon earthquake article. The caption reads, and this is not a direct quote, that priests were "supervising" the hangings of criminals. Again, as with the unattributed allegation that priests were "hanging" people, where is the evidence that priests were "supervising" the hangings? Sources which speak of the king erecting gallows to hang looters make no mention of priests supervising. Check:
Robert K. Reeves� �The Lisbon Earthquake of 1755: Confrontation between the Church and the Enlightenment in 18th Century Portugal.
The Lisbon Earthquake of 1755: British Accounts. Translated by Judite Nozes. Lisbon: The British Historical Society of Portugal, 1990
Thomas Chase's account in the Gentleman's Magazine, Volume 88, from July to December, 1860. pages 195 though 297.
Russell R. Dynes. �The Lisbon Earthquake in 1755: The First Modern Disaster,� University of Delaware Disaster Research Center, Dept. of Sociology and Criminal Justice, 2003
It is entirely possible that priests were present at some of the hangings for religious purposes, just as they are today at state sponsored executions. In fact, they are no more "supervising" today's state executions than they were supervising the executions in Lisbon in 1755.

Since it appears I have been criticized for not changing the 1755 Lisbon article, I will do two things:

First, I will change the caption under the picture to more accurately reflect what historical sources say. There is a great body of evidence that these "survivors" who were executed were looters, (as well as murderers and arsonists).
Second, I will respond to the charge made on another page (please excuse my ignorance in not knowing how to respond to that charge to the person making it, and on the "appropriate" page, since I have also been criticized for my ignorance in Wikipedia "protocol.") that I was somehow not really interested in truth because I didn't change the article by removing the "priests roamed allegation." I beg to differ with the person making the charge - since I was interested in the truth, and was rather certain that my own research is not infallible, I left it in for the original author, or for anyone else who might have a credible source for the allegation, to post it. Deleting it would have not been respecting the truth, should the allegation prove true. I figured that the more people read that unsourced allegation, the better the chances of someone putting forth a source. I also believe the individual who originated the allegation, and the individual who answered a question about it, have a responsibility to submit a source so that it could be checked. In the course of my own research, which has included checking over 20 different secular sources, which are not at all "friendly" toward the Catholic Church, asking respecting historians who have done extensive research on this period, about 7 church histories that I personally own, several books on the Inquisition (Kamen, Peters included - these used documents from the Spanish and Portugese Inquisitions, yet make no mention of heretics being hung after the Lisbon quake), and several books that included eye witness accounts. I am wondering why in all that I have checked, there is no mention of this alleged incident, yet still willing to admit that I have not checked every source on the subject, and that maybe the individual who originated the line in October, 2003, would have some information on it. Personally, I doubt it, but will happily concede should a credible source be put forth.
  • Since I have also been criticized for messing up this page, I am attempting to put the discussion in order. Polycarp7 05:55, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

References and Feature Nomination

This article is really superb and if only someone would add some references, it would imho be ready to be a featured article--XmarkX 14:28, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree. Sandover 17:05, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've now added a few references, at least ones with which I am familiar and which are reliable. There aren't many easy references for this particular subject. If someone could post a few more links, I am sure readers would be grateful.

This is article is so broad-ranged and wide-shouldered, it's impossible to source everything in it. But it's a delight to read, because it so succinctly combines many different points of view (including the historical, philosophical, religious, scientific and political). Very readable, too; part of it flows like a thriller.

Yes, it was a diamond-in-the-rough when I and a few others began editing on it in late December 2004, after the Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami. It's been nominated before, but I think it's time has come to be actually be a Featured article.

Below are a few souvenirs of some ancient edit wars. Most of what people are arguing about here is now deleted completely. Sandover 05:05, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

rm paragraph

I removed the following section:

Although Portugal, with Spain, had led Europe in the first centuries of maritime exploration and colonialization, the earthquake and tsunami effectively ceded the 19th Century colonial scramble to England, France, and later, to Germany and Italy. In the generation following the earthquake many colonial Portuguese, including some who had intermarried with Africans and Brazilians, returned to Lisbon. The darker hue sometimes seen in Portuguese skin tones today -- by comparison to Spanish neighbors -- is popularly credited to the 18th century genetic commingling that came with the retornados following the 1755 earthquake.

Because the darker skin theory is crap: Portuguese were maryying and having children with the natives from colonies ever since the XIV century - nothing to do with the earthquake. I wonder were is said that portuguese are darker than Spanish - it is certainly not popular thought since colour is not really a thing one thinks about in this part of the world... The idea of making a parallel with the earthquake and the decline of the Portuguese Empire is tempting but incorrect. The Empire was already going down the drain, since the time Portugal and Spain were a Personal Union under the Habsburgs and the Habsburgs were quarrelling with the rest of Europe. Actually the Pombal government was a peak of the empire's fortunes. muriel@pt 10:44, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, the parallel with the earthquake and the decline of the Portuguese Empire is also carried by the CIA in its World Factbook:
Following its heyday as a world power during the 15th and 16th centuries, Portugal lost much of its wealth and status with the destruction of Lisbon in a 1755 earthquake, occupation during the Napoleonic Wars, and the independence in 1822 of Brazil as a colony. A 1910 revolution deposed the monarchy; for most of the next six decades, repressive governments ran the country. In 1974, a left-wing military coup installed broad democratic reforms. The following year, Portugal granted independence to all of its African colonies. Portugal is a founding member of NATO and entered the EC (now the EU) in 1986. [1]
But I agree the darker skin thing is absolute rubbish. �Cantus�☎ 06:39, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)
Note that the reference does not mention the quake alone, but along with several other things of which the loss of Brazil followed by a civil war were a major blow. I didnt imagine the Cia factbook mentioning this kind of thing! Always learning. muriel@pt 11:33, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The language needs polish, I guess

"Destruction was generalized". Is it English? � Kpalion (talk) 23:08, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes it is. English English, in fact. Sandover 01:44, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fine. Just wanted to be sure. � Kpalion (talk) 02:03, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)


References

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