Talk:List of race deniers

From Wikinfo

What happened to SPOV?

What happened to SPOV? I mean all sorts of people jumped in and edited to make it NPOV. If you wanted an NPOV article, just pick up the Wikipedia article on Race. I don't know why these people want to NPOV an article. You have the Race article to make your point. Make it there, not here!.

This article is to support the Classical definition of race. It is about cataloguing the new dimension of this deracination ideology to deny that it ever existed. This is a catalogue of people who hold that position.

The Wikinfo policy is SPOV. Please respect that.WHEELER 17:18, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

On some issues it is hard, but I'll try. Fred Talk 21:46, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

Also, as you pointed out to me Wheeler, content has to be encyclopedic. Sometimes when I'm attempting to say what I want to say, and still make it sound encyclopedic, it can be hard to stay away from NPOV altogether. My understanding of Wikinfo policy was not that NPOV was forbidden, just not encouraged. Personally I may use it as a sort of garnish for SPOV, but SPOV is always primary.--AaronCarson 02:15, 31 March 2008 (EDT)

I think that we're at cross purposes on SPOV. To me, SPOV means that the people on this list need to be treated sympathetically. Some are eminent scientists and not many are Marxists. It is scarcely SPOV to attack their competence or accuse them of saying untruths because they are Marxists. Maybe the articles should be re-jigged as "Race denial" and "Criticism of race denial". Declaration of CoI: I am what Kipling called the Aryan brown, and in my experience race exists and makes a big difference to other's perceptions of me. To deny that is like denying that it makes a difference whether I am female.--User:Taxwoman 07:17, 1 April 2008 (EDT)

NO, SPOV has nothing to do with "sympathetic treatment of the people on the list". This article is a simple catalogueing. That's it. It is a simple statement of facts. These people denied that "Race does NOT exist". They spoke it. It is simply those people that deny race exists. It is simply a List. That is all it is. You can't "pov" a list. Just check it for accuracy and I have footnoted each one.WHEELER 19:06, 1 April 2008 (EDT)

Fair enough. However, I have deleted "due in large part to the rise of Cultural Marxism, a dominant ideology ensconced in political correctness, which is affecting many academic fields. Denying that race exists is a part of the deracination ideology which is an integral plank in Marxism/Leninism/International Socialism/Communism". This is obviously a suggestion about their motives. Incidentally, you have never replied to my comment on your talk page:

I would be interested, as a member of a different race from you, to know whether mine is more gifted (superior) than yours, and whether it is blessed or cursed. I know that I personally, being of a different religion from you, am thereby cursed in your eyes, but what of people of my race who are say Catholic or Anglican or Baptist?--User:Taxwoman 08:33, 11 March 2008 (EDT)
--User:Taxwoman 07:50, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

Do you have information on this subject of Deracination? If you check the ariticle, Deracination ideology, I trace it to Karl Marx, to communism. Now, I posted my research---and there are references to what I say in the article. I have more info that I haven't put in there yet. You moved that out--Yet you don't even post any contradictory evidence! Where is YOUR EVIDENCE? Just because you "don't like it"? It grates against your nerves? When you remove something from an article---ONE should have Good Reason. You have NOT posted a valid reason, rationale based ON evidence. If you posted say, two or more pieces that this comes from Martians and that Martians teach this--I can see. You posted NO evidence.

Do you know where "political Correctness" was coined and developed?

Try the Soviet Union.

Being of a different religion is not a curse--where did you make that up from?

Do I have telepathy? You never mentioned your race. What I am supposed to do, guess? So what if your of a different race, who cares.

No one started to deny race until Marxism appeared! It is Marxism that wants it to disappear---No one else! This is Logic, Taxwoman: Marxists teach that race is evil. Marxism created Political Correctness. If you spout Political Correctness---One is following Marxist teachings. If it Walks like a Duck, and talks like a duck---It's a Duck!! We call people "Christians" because they talk and practice Christian teachings. A Buddhist doesn't spout Christian stuff, now Would he?

If I am wrong in my assertion---YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE E-V-I-D-E-N-C-E. Where does Deracination come from?WHEELER 20:06, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

WHEELER, rejection of race is more of a liberal, scientific viewpoint than Marxist. Fred Talk 21:18, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

Marxism has moved into the Culture. Liberalism is nothing more than Cultural Marxism.

"" If we look at it analytically, if we look at it historically, we quickly find out exactly what it is. Political Correctness is cultural Marxism. It is Marxism translated from economic into cultural terms. It is an effort that goes back not to the 1960s and the hippies and the peace movement, but back to World War I. If we compare the basic tenets of Political Correctness with classical Marxism the parallels are very obvious.

""The stuff we’ve been hearing about this morning – the radical feminism, the women’s studies departments, the gay studies departments, the black studies departments – all these things are branches of Critical Theory. What the Frankfurt School essentially does is draw on both Marx and Freud in the 1930s to create this theory called Critical Theory. The term is ingenious because you’re tempted to ask, "What is the theory?" The theory is to criticize. The theory is that the way to bring down Western culture and the capitalist order is not to lay down an alternative. They explicitly refuse to do that. They say it can’t be done, that we can’t imagine what a free society would look like (their definition of a free society). As long as we’re living under repression – the repression of a capitalistic economic order which creates (in their theory) the Freudian condition, the conditions that Freud describes in individuals of repression – we can’t even imagine it. What Critical Theory is about is simply criticizing. It calls for the most destructive criticism possible, in every possible way, designed to bring the current order down. And, of course, when we hear from the feminists that the whole of society is just out to get women and so on, that kind of criticism is a derivative of Critical Theory. It is all coming from the 1930s, not the 1960s."

The following quotes come from The Origins of Political Correctness by Bill Lind.

To deny race, to deny that there are racial differences is all Political Correctness. It is called Cultural Marxism whether any individual claims or doesn't claim Marxism personally. The viewpoint that "race doesn't exist" is strictly Marxist!WHEELER 23:44, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

I'm afraid the feminists you've been listening to don't sound like very good feminists Mr Wheeler. "Society is out to get women" does not promote a feminist idea about women. As far as I can tell, feminism is about feminine strength and power. That statement seems to suggest quite the opposite. While I agree that some politically correct ideologies may be modelled after Marxist ideals, I think it's a bit sweeping to say that all of them are. What about environmentalism? How do you link it back to Marxism? I'm sure many members of "politically correct" organisations have a bad habit of complaining, rather than doing anything about the problems of the world, but I think it's just an example of a bad approach to these ideologies, and not definitive in itself. --AaronCarson 02:50, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Did you read the whole article. Here is a Wikipedia article of Cultural Marxism. Do you know the impact of the Frankfurt school?WHEELER 08:59, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

"Do I have telepathy? You never mentioned your race. What I am supposed to do, guess? So what if your of a different race, who cares." I have a photo on my user page, just as you do. I was born in England, but my parents are Indian. Whether or not race exists, my perceived race has certainly had a very real effect on my life. Now, you say on your user page "I know some races are more gifted (superior) to other races. I know some races are blessed and some races are cursed." So, I ask again: is my race, the race of Mahatma Gandhi, Chandrashekar Raman and others, among the gifted (superior) ones? Is it blessed or cursed?--User:Taxwoman 06:43, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

What the Heck are you talking about. This page is about discussing, "The List of race deniers". PERIOD. You have deleted stuff, placed NO evidence to the contrary and we are talking about your subjective feelings. What does this have to do with an Encyclopaedic entry? What? Either talk about the subject at hand or go away. There was a saying on the temple of Delphi, "Know Thyself". When one "knows himself", he also knows HIS place. All you have expressed on this page is your feelings, and opinions. Discuss using KNOWLEDGE, Evidence, Quotes, References! I am not interested in YOUR feelings or Opinions on this subject. WHEELER 08:59, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

Marxism responsible for race denial

That Marxism creates this is disputed by some here at Wikinfo. Who is the first person on this list?

Jay Gould.

Jay Gould is a Marxist!

"The late Stephen Jay Gould was a Marxist who labored long and hard to deny the truth about race and IQ. The living Steven Rose, Richard Lewontin and Leon Kamin continue his work. The paradox is that the leading race-deniers prove the importance of race, because they all belong to that tiny minority known as Jews. So did Marx, Freud and Boas. Jews are very good at duping and deceiving, at creating seductive ideologies to fool naïve whites into acting against their own interests. Jews fool and rule; whites swallow and follow. And there are genetic reasons for this. Tiny differences in DNA don’t account just for a highly significant Jewish advantage in verbal IQ, but also for a highly significant Jewish advantage in arrogance, ethnocentrism and disregard for objective truth. Jews preach equality and universalism while ruthlessly pursuing their own advantage and enrichment. That’s how they’ve come to dominate white societies and that’s why they’ve led the race-denial crusade. The Jewish boxer has been fighting with lead in his gloves and doesn’t want them examined. But his cheating is about to be unmasked: the referee has blown his whistle and the gloves are being unlaced. In other words, science is providing stronger and stronger evidence for the existence and importance of race." From Luke O'Farrell, Heil-Hound On Their Track Gould’s Gullible Goyim and the Resurrection of Race Realism Retrieved 2008-4-5

It is Marxism that denies race.WHEELER 20:19, 5 April 2008 (EDT)