Wikinfo:Village pump/Archive 5

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German Wikinfo celebrates its 400th article

Our 400th article is about Shax, the national game of Somalia. About 18% of the German articles cannot be found on Wikipedia, just on Wikinfo. - Mr Mancala 03:22, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Spoiled

Wikinfo has been spoiled. It is no longer useful for non-English people. Could you recover the Germanic Umlaute and the special signs used in French, please? In fact, more than a hundred articles are missing. I doubt that I should continue to contribute here. -Mr Mancala 14:23, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Could you give me an example? Fred Talk 14:25, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Try any article with an accent or an Umlaut such as [[A-i-�]], [[Bar�]], [[Burg Olbr�ck]] or look at the French start page. Burg Olbr�ck is now Burg Olbrück ! - Mr Mancala 14:28, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

This was cased by a transfer of the contents of the database done by ibibio. It has to do with the character set used. I'll see if anything can be done. Fred Talk 14:34, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Okay, if they can't, they have killed Wikinfo as an international project. - Mr Mancala 14:42, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

and almost all mancala articles are also spoiled (probably up to 200). I believe several thousand articles are damaged in all languages (maybe not in Croatian and Latin). - Mr Mancala 15:11, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
Thanks for saving them. - Mr Mancala 03:37, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

German Wikipedia

The article on Wikinfo has been deleted. The discussion was characterized by manipulations, half-truths and lies. Particularly active was a German sysop called Achates who recently joined Wikinfo to write a defamatory article about me. - Mr Mancala 08:44, 31 May 2008 (EDT)


Article request

Can someone start the Wikinfo article on Conservapedia (as I am busy)? There is enough material on Wikipedia (including the talk page and its archives). Jackiespeel 11:50, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

Done. Or should I say "started?" ;-) As per the policies here on SPOV, a criticism page was created from the main Wikipedia article on Conservapedia. - Nhprman 13:05, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

Imports jumbled

Can someone go have a look at the new entry LaGrange, Georgia and perhaps repair and also possibly explain what's causing the jumble of sections... it was supposed to be an average import from Wikipedia, but something obviously went wrong. In addition, my log in information is missing after saving. I'm going back for another look, but it seems to be staying fouled up. Will Dockery 18:06, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

Is it OK now? Fred Talk 18:31, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
I'm afraid not. It's that coord template thing again. I checked the article on Wikipedia and it displays fine there. My personal opinion is that we should leave the coordinate templates off of Wikinfo for the time being, untill we have a user on board who really knows them. --AaronCarson 18:52, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
I was afriad that it was something from this end, since I'm working with a really ancient computer...Will Dockery 18:58, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
Well it's not a matter of your computer, but your internet browzer does affect whether or not the articles with coordinates on them, appear jumbled or not. Our Fred, is spared having to see them that way because he's using firefox, but editors who use Microsoft Internet Explorer are not so lucky. I'm off to bed now, but I'll check on the templates tomorrow. --AaronCarson 19:05, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
I'll just leave it be for now, although it's pretty frustrating to look at as is, and impossible, it seems, to edit from that page from here.Will Dockery 20:00, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
How about now? Fred Talk 20:11, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
Looks great now, thanks. Will Dockery 20:30, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
The template removed was Template:Mapit-US-cityscale. Fred Talk 20:41, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

How ever did you manage to find it?--AaronCarson 16:29, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Trial and error, but hard, as removing it doesn't change the display on my browser. It had to do with coordinates and that is the template that does that. Fred Talk 16:31, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
Well thanks for taking it on. I found it quite frustrating, even being able to see the difference. Cheers!--AaronCarson 16:35, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Fair Use Questions on Images

I think the image of Mary Quant and her designs I uploaded for miniskirt can be considered fair use for information/educational purposes... please correct and delete if inappropriate.

I think we're OK here with that. Fred Talk 11:17, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Email confirmation and moving pages

I have changed user permission to require email confirmation as a condition of editing. I hope that does not affect any of our regular editors, but should inhibit vandalism. Also, due to move vandalism, I have removed the option for ordinary users to move pages. Fred Talk 09:32, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Even better. More peace and quiet.WHEELER 20:00, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
Coolness. There was some vandal on a 'pedia who moved all kinds of pages, but that was several years ago, I guess. (Eddie On Wheels), or a like user name. Terryeo 00:42, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Hi ibiblio-announce

This is a reminder that we will be taking most ibiblio.org services offline on tomorrow, June 10, 2008 beginning at 6:00 a.m. EDT. We are re-racking our primary Netapp filer in order to add additional hardware. We hope that the total downtime will be less than one hour. Forwarded from an email from ibiblio by Fred Talk 21:15, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

When will this be Greenwich Mean Time? Proxima Centauri 02:29, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
Eleven in the morning. Fred Talk 05:11, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

False Info on Wikipedia

Scotland is blaming Wikipedia for falling test scores amongst its students.

"The Scottish Parent Teacher Council (SPTC) said pupils are turning to websites and internet resources that contain inaccurate or deliberately misleading information before passing it off as their own work. The group singled out online encyclopedia Wikipedia, which allows entries to be logged or updated by anyone and is not verified by researchers, as the main source of information."

from http://news.scotsman.com/education/Falling-exam--passes-blamed.4209408.jp

We are trying to put a product on the market and this product, knowledge, requires precision and accuracy. I bought iFinger software that has dictionary, thesaurus and search engine. It automatically includes Wikipedia.WHEELER 11:07, 22 June 2008 (EDT)

Templates and categories

Let me make a simple suggestion, not directed at anyone in particular. When we import templates from Wikipedia - and I should also include article Categories too - I urge people to think it through. Rather than simply bringing them over because they are THERE and we have imported articles that include them now HERE, let's think "Is this template or category the BEST we can do, or is it simply micro-categorizing the articles, as Wikipedians are prone to do? When I'm importing a WP article that has 30+ categories, I do NOT bring them all over. Some of them are insanely detailed, and I must say, they change constantly over at WP anyway, usually matasticizing into ever smaller degrees of descriptions. Templates are great tools, and I like them, but some are simply far too detailed and frankly, are distractions. Categories are the same. I would also note that when I bring over WP articles, I rework them, sometimes cutting out cruft, often adding details that were either ignored, cut hastily, or are being suppressed due to "gang editing" over there. I also want to reiterate that I don't think we want this to be simply a carbon copy of WP. Just some food for thought. - Nhprman 15:08, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Yes, import their excellence, discard their mediocrity. Fred Talk 15:24, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
Techniqly you're right, practicly it takes forever. I tried to do that in one or two times, but except getting the lost information from a lot deleted at one time, cause the history of a page is usually very full and filled with more or less useful information, it's kind of hard. That category things I've noticed too, but I always thought they'll be made eventually. Anyhow, you're right, it's annoying to see so many red links, and worse, to import useless stuff. On that idea... can we have some sort of format for... people? So that we don't have to transfer "player infobox", "coach infobox" and such. Anime addict 17:06, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
There is no formula, just create a useful information resource. What you think is useful is as valid as what I think. The answer is always both. Fred Talk 17:41, 26 June 2008 (EDT)
We don't involve ourselves with every jot of positive/negative and write a single neutral article. Because we don't, the goal remains clear and in sight. We can keep in mind that we are creating useful information for readers because we are not pressed to defend our every edit. While in an argumentative environment (such as WP), it is less easy to keep the proposed goal in mind. What do you all think of writing Fred's succinct description into policy in a clear manner. It seems to me "useful information" is the best possible description of the rudder that steers this ship. Terryeo 03:39, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm not real sure this conversation is going to result in a clear policy, other than it is up to each editor to think about what they are doing and it's effect on the usefulness of the site. Fred Talk 05:34, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

And as far as /useful/ goes, the more information and perspectives, the better. And while I agree with Nhprman that I'm sure none of us want this to be a mirror site of Wikipedia, I've come to see the value of importing information from there, with the goal of improving/adding to it at some point in the future. Will Dockery 09:29, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
Well, we have more freedom the WP's editors, We need not justify every jot and comma. We can create multi-page articles rich with graphics, perhaps even sound clips. While the main page could be clean and quick to load. There are additionally possible ways to present useful information than WP's single article, single page, single thinking, single "neutral" opinion. Terryeo 20:16, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Wikipedia on Race

Here is an article from a reporter at American Renaissance about how Wikipedia's bias on race articles: http://www.amren.com/features/200807wikipedia.html

This is how this guy and myself see Wikipedia and the 'why' of my series on classical definition series on race.WHEELER 16:47, 6 July 2008 (EDT)

That's an interesting article, Wheeler. It presents the idea (I think) that Wikipedia has a bias or slant in the area of race. It documents instances that together, present a pretty strong case. It seems to say that racism (and a few other subjects) are unlikely to be neutrally presented at Wikipedia. I don't think the author clearly understands why not, but presents the situation of bias existing over a long period of time and into the present. Terryeo 06:20, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

German Wikinfo celebrates its 500th article

Our 500th article is about Nidden, a wonderful village in East Prussia, now ruled by Lithuania. - Mr Mancala 03:01, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

And was this German city ethnically cleansed after WWII? Why is it not a part of Germany like it always was? East Prussia is Lithuanian? How did this happen? How did a German town become Lithuania? Whatever happened to East Prussia? I don't read German, but I hope the article states that it was ethnically cleansed.WHEELER 21:34, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
The Nazi rulers of East Prussia invaded their neighbors, Poland and the Soviet Union, in a war of conquest, which they lost. Subsequently they were deprived of large amounts of territory which was distributed among Lithuania, Russia and Poland. Having conducted themselves in a savage and brutal manner during their invasion of Poland and the Soviet Union, they were treated similarly by invading Russian troops and were, indeed ethnically cleansed, see Expulsion of Germans after World War II. Fred Talk 21:44, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
Oh God... and I though dividing them in 4 and then in 2 by the Wall was the worse Germans had to go through... It brings me back to what WHEELER said once, that you learn new things every day here. Anime addict 22:28, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
Well, not East Prussia invaded its neighbors but Nazi Germany. Ethnic cleansings, deportations to Siberia and abductions of German children happened only in the east, although Germany invaded its western neighbors too and once even murdered the whole population of a French village. Lithuanians protected Germans after the war whenever they could. Up to 5,000 German children fled to Lithuania, their parents had already died, some just five or six years old, where they survived as wolves children ("Wolfskinder" in German) working for Lithuanian farmers (20,000 were left alone in East Prussia under Russian occupation). The population of East Prussia was mostly German. There were also Curians and Masurians, but they all spoke German and almost all of them fled to western Germany. Nehrungskurisch, a language still spoken in the far east by a few hundred people in the 1930s was virtually exterminated by the Red Army in 1945. Today just five or six very old speakers of this language remain, refugees who live near Hamburg. There was also a notable Lithuanian minority in the far north-east of East Prussia, the area which is now Lithuanian. 657.000 East Prussians were killed during WWII, 20% of the population. More than 400.000 were civilians murdered by the Red Army or died in the harsh winter of 1944/45. East Prussia is today divided into three parts: the Lithuanian northeast, the Russian north (including the capital of East Prussia Königsberg/Kaliningrad (the Russians named the city after a Stalinist mass murder, see Katyn massacre where over 20.000 Polish intellectuals and officers were murdered in an Russian effort (welcomed by Nazi Germany) to exterminate the Polish as a separate cultural entity) and the Polish south. You can say "If you commit the worst, expect the worst (in return)." However, there is also a German saying "I don't wish it my worst enemy." which you say when something really terrible happens to you or your family. -Mr Mancala 04:43, 11 July 2008 (EDT)


Flemish Cap

I'm sorry to report, that we're still having trouble with the display of articles containing coordinate templates in Internet Explorer. I don't mind personally, but I suspect I'll not be the only person attempting to view the articles on Wikinfo in this browser. The Flemish Cap article displays in such a way that all the tabs at the top are pushed over to the left, and the edit tab is innaccessable in my screen. Also, the alt E keyboard funtion is unresponsive, else I'd have attempted to fix it. --AaronCarson 16:52, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Working on it now. I'll probably abort if I can't fix it. Fred Talk 17:00, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Cookie image

I have noticed that a lot of websites have a small image for the cookies saved for bookmarks or favorites. Wikipedia has a 'W'; Ancient Library has a 'A'; Questia has a 'i'. Can we get an Owl image on our cookie so my Wikinfo bookmarks stand out so I can find them. Something colorful would be nice. The face of the owl should do it. This would be a nice addition.WHEELER 17:37, 13 July 2008 (EDT) All I have for Wikinfo is a blank square.WHEELER 17:38, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

Look in the software and see where that image is located. Fred Talk 18:41, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

Wikinfo languages

Introduction

Nhprman has started a campaign for the supremacy of English on Wikinfo about a month ago. The following was moved from the talk page of the German language article Talk:Idiom Neutral to the village pump as it was in no longer in any way related to the article itself.

[[Talk:Franz Kafka (English)|campaign for the supremacy of English on Wikinfo]] is an inappropriate exaggeration. Fred Talk 05:35, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Call it what you want. "Campaign" is a fitting expression for what I perceive. - Mr Mancala 08:11, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
I think you are suffering from a persecution complex. No one is out to get you, and there is no "campaign" other than your campaign to muddle and confuse this project by putting all German-themed article subjects into only German. If anyone goes to that Franz Kafka talk page, they'll see that it ended on a very positive note, and that we were both in agreement as to what should be done - i.e. we should have seperate wiki projects for each language. Now, you're blowing this up into a big Wikipedia-style controversy. There's no need for that. - Nhprman 11:29, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Imputations and insults does not make your comments true. Your fanatical language ("persecution complex", "bogus", "idiotic", "insane") shows that the word "campaign" is fitting. Nothing is muddled and confused. German-themed article subjects are available in any language you want. Articles are linked to other language versions. Nobody must learn another language. It is acceptable that English users who are interested in a great German writer guess that "Englisch" means "English". Additional search functions are available too. Your problem is constructed and artificial. It seems that you are driven by something else: language politics for English supremacy. Fred saw it far less problematic. He stated on the Kafka talk page: "It makes very little difference". One day Wikinfo languages will be more separated. It's not urgent. There is no reason to "urge Fred to create second level domains" (Quote Nhprman; scroll down to find it). Accept it. - Mr Mancala 13:12, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Another rant. Look, you're fighting a little crusade for the German language by flooding the encyclopedia with German-only articles. By doing so, you're screwing up the usability of this encyclopedia as a viable alternative to the English-language Wikipedia. It's UNIMAGINABLY FOOLISH and no, not acceptable, for users who stumble on the all-German-language article and have decipher a link (in that language, or Italian, or Russian) to a secondary, less obvious article, which might not ever exist, BTW. This is all very absurd and it's ruining the encyclopedia. And it's not "supremecy" that I'm for, it's USABILITY. You're trashing the encyclopedia. Please stop it. Nhprman 00:28, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
As I already showed, nothing is screwed up or ruined. What you write is just a propaganda lie. You have nothing to tell me. - Mr Mancala 03:32, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
I've had a lot to tell you, but I'm seeing that you're stubborn and are going to simply keep infecting the site with your own views and doing what you damned well please here, so it's no good arguing with you anymore. We simply have to wait until Fred grows a pair and creates those other language wikis. And please learn how to indent comments properly. - Nhprman 08:21, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Moved discussion

English speakers can go to xxx (English) or they can use the search function. English isn't the default language. All languages should be treated the same. The arrogance of native English speakers is just annoying and proves that we need a neutral auxiliary language such as Esperanto, Ido or whatsoever. - Mr Mancala 11:05, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
I'm sorry, but no, that's wrong. This encyclopedia will be garbage to any English speaker who searches for a word, person or thing in English and finds the PRIMARY article in Deutsch, Spanish, or some other language. As I said before, I have no idea why this "throwing them all in one basket" approach was taken with all non-English languages, and it will be the downfall of Wikinfo. And yes, on the Internet, English is the default language. Sorry if that's offensive, but it's a fact. Chinese is second, and Spanish is a very distant third. German is actually behind Spanish, Japanese and French. [1] - Nhprman 12:16, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
As I outlined above, it won't be "garbage". English speakers can find their articles (if they have got a minimum of intelligence which is required anyway if reading an encyclopedia should be a meaningful pastime). Wikinfo is a multi-language project (it pretends to be) in the same name space, so how could it be compared to the Internet? If you doesn't want to drive non-English speakers away, you need to learn a little bit respect and a multicultural approach. I live in a multi-language area, the European Union, so I know what I am talking about. Putting one language above all the others is just offensive. - Mr Mancala 12:28, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
btw, even if the primary article is in German, they would find a link on top of it to the English version. See the article on Heinrich Schliemann. So what's the problem? In my impression you're constructing problems, but your actual concern is to fight for the supremacy of your language. - Mr Mancala 12:33, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
all this isn't new -- see Talk:Franz_Kafka_(English) - what about my suggestion I made at the end? - Mr Mancala 13:07, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
I agreed with you then, and I agree with you now. All German articles should be migrated to www.wikinfo.org/de. The article on Schliemann is a great example. He's not ONLY known in Germany, he's a world renowned archealogist. The Link to the English article at the top should be in English, not German, BTW. Luckily, I can understand what it meant, but some will just be baffled and never get to the "Englisch" article. The idea that all German-sounding names should have articles in German FIRST is a bit arrogant. Should "Sauerkraut" be in German, even though it's used in BOTH languages? - Nhprman 14:31, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Yes, it should and every English speaker knows that it is a German loan word (and not just German sounding). On the other hand, Sushi should be reserved to the Japanese, Paella to the Spanish, cognac to the French ... It is obvious that you don't want to participate in a multi-language project. - Mr Mancala 18:46, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Fred can answer this question, but I was unaware that this started out as a multilingual encyclopedia. In fact, I'm pretty sure it did not, and has been allowed to be changed into one by folks like you. Congratulations on your achievement in moving it in that direction, but that's not what I thought it was, and is NOT clearly labeled as such. Visitors, then, will be very surprised and confused when they hit upon such loan words. - Nhprman 20:24, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
Originally, it was American English, but it is now multi-lingual, although Mr. Mancala goes too far. For example deleting articles such as Reutlingen when there is no article in German. Fred Talk 20:25, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
It is clearly labelled as such, see the Main Page. Note that this comment was added on July 10, 2007 by User:Terryeo AFTER numerous people started Wikinfo in other languages. It was already a fact and the main page was adjusted to this fact. Note that I DIDN'T start ANY of these non-English Wikinfos. I'm not going too far. It is very confusing when you have a German language article which links to Reutlingen, but then you get an English article. It is urgently needed to do this step NOW because it will prevent that hundreds of intralinks must be corrected when the article is later claimed by the proper language. And believe me, lots of non-English speakers will be offended by your English-rules-the-world attitude. If you consider the number of authors / articles in the wikipedia-sphere, English comes first, German is second, French is third -- almost as on Wikinfo (English = 1; German = 2; French = 4). BTW, I've just counted the number of contributors to non-English articles, there are (or were) about 15 main authors. Only two or three are still active, one reason could be because of the behavior towards non-English contributions. Anyway do you know that 90% of the English articles were last edited in 2004 (just look up "random pages), before the first non-English articles appeared in January 2005? Many English articles (even of later date) have NON-working templates, NON-working letters areN'T SPOV-ed (if you object to have a SPOV article on a certain topic, then mark it anyway as a "criticism" article and put the SPOV title on the blacklist). These problems are UNKNOWN to non-English Wikinfo articles. I hate to link these international articles to English articles, which are just garbage (the English article on Reutlingen is not really an exception - most images aren't uploaded)! Particularly true for English articles about German issues. - Mr Mancala 03:52, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
Man, I understand what you're trying to say, but I really don't think what you proposed are the best solutions. First of all, the main page and most of the main rules are in English. This project started in English and just after some time it became more functional in terms of other languages. Now, if it were me, and I were a newcommer here and I'd look for what it says on Sushi, I'd expect it to be in English. In fact, I'd expect all the top-domain names to have articles in English. That's how I made for the Romanian thing too, see I put Gregorian Bivolaru firstly in English, even if he's a Romanian and has nothing to do with that language, for the simple reason that it would be understood by more people. After all, that's the point: to be understood. If I were to have made an article about pets in Romanian to start with, I wouldn't have had access to Wheeler's (or any other non-Romanian-speakers') knowledge and advice on the subject. Of course, that's just my personal option, but we have to accept that English is the language of the internet. That's not saying other languages don't have their place, they just should know it. For now, I'm just happy that there are sites like Wikinfo that accept articles in any languages, although I would have been more happy in subdomains to facilitate this reality, as Wikipedia or, more new as I see, Uncyclopedia have. Anime addict 10:23, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
I'm actually not opposed to non-English wikinfos. I just think, as Mancala himself has proposed, that - like Wikipedia - there should be separate projects for each language. As I said elsewhere, it's rather silly to think that I would have to learn French to read an article about a Frenchman, or about croissants. It's ludicrous also that the article on Sushi should be in Japanese, as was suggested earlier. - Nhprman 11:06, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
Respect should always work both ways (otherwise it's not respect, but slavery), there is no reason why ONE language should be put first (there are Wikinfo intralinks on top of each multilingual topic). German has got quite a different dimension than Romanian - there are already over 550 articles in German and I doubt that Romanian Wikinfo will ever reach the 100 mark - even the Croation project has become rather inactive in the last months after a remarkable start. In fact, I don't know if index.php can be replaced by en, de, fr, it, ro, pt, lt SO THAT intralinks are still possible in an easy way. Proteus was our programmer, but he left because of reasons a little bit obscure, and maybe (our lack of a programmer) is actually the reason why such a change cannot be made now. Adding a (Deutsch) after each lemma is, however, utter nonsense. I advocated something similar (prefixing German articles with "Deutsch:" (actually an invention of User:StarofLight (largely inactive for over a year, but still a sysop)), but it proved to be a terrible "Sackgasse". BTW, I added over a 1,000 articles to Wikinfo (almost 400 in English / about 20% of the "working" articles), how many did you? - Mr Mancala 12:49, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
This isn't a contest to see how many articles each of us has brought here. Nor is it reasonable or respectful to say that Romanian or Croatian is less worthy of articles here than German. A way should be found to create separate wikis for each language, then each should be treated equally, as you desire it. - Nhprman 15:43, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
I think this is getting out of hand. Not to mention you seem to break your first phrase with words of desrespect in the main body of this message, as in, while claiming German should have the same rights (if not above) the English language, you (less) subtily claim that Romanian should have a lot fewer rights because it has fewer articles. Just for the record, I don't view with good eyes ordering on the first page the languages by place of articles, and I'd prefer by alphabetical order (yeah, I know it ain't exactly SPOV but the current order will put ppl wonder). I didn't came here to (have to) defend my language, I was only happy I could write in it, as many others do. I didn't write in it to make the number at the right of some table bigger, and to put it above it, because doing that would be simple: just copy-pasting for a day or two all the red links from ro wiki on the article Bucureşti and Romanian would probably be a close second to German. I find your view of who imported more articles and who's language has over 100 articles here and that it has no future etc very disconsiderative, if not just plain flam(e)able. I don't think I insulted German by saying it's of lower statute on the internet than English, because that's the case with all the other languages in the world. If you find offensive the egalitarian statute between Romanian and German, but find normal the one between German and English, I think it's sad. --Anime addict 13:49, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
(1) "subtily claim that Romanian should have a lot fewer rights because it has fewer articles" - No, I didn't. Refrain from writing such nonsense, please. What I wrote referred to experience not to hierarchy of languages. (2) "the languages by place of articles, and I'd prefer by alphabetical order" - okay for me. (3) "just copy-pasting for a day or two all the red links" - you don't know what you're talking about, the German articles weren't just "copy-pasted" - most were heavily edited, many have lots of photos and up to 20% were authored for Wikinfo. At best you can start 20 articles a day that way but that would take 6-7 hours (doubt that anybody would do it for long). Anime addict, you have no idea what it means to create a large amount of articles.
This destructive behavior is sad and you are going to kill Wikinfo as an international project. Fred is going to see what he'll get from you. Congratulations! - Mr Mancala 16:20, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
Did I say going overboard? Seems it was an understatement. I don't see what you're so worked out about, and why you're starting to treat me like some sort of an enemy. I've seen enough flames to know not to involve myself in one. Seems this started cause I gave some educated examples about how I made some articles, and then presented my opinion based on those. I'm not going to apologize for that... I will however answer (and hopefully for the last time, like I said I'm not in the mood to keep defending my position or my language like my life depended on it) those 3 points you made.
(1) "German has got quite a different dimension than Romanian - there are already over 550 articles in German and I doubt that Romanian Wikinfo will ever reach the 100 mark - even the Croation project has become rather inactive in the last months after a remarkable start." That phrase says it all. I already commented it and any person reading it would notice you're (in)directly attacking my language, its existance here, you're making future claims without basis and you're indirectly attacking my ability to continue this project, like it'd be some sort of whim of mine and yours is more of an mesiac sent to give the German language the place it already has in the world or something. That's what I understood from your text and I think it's clear why.
(2) Just a mention there, I was saying in the relation of Romanian being ahead of Latin and Portugese, although alphabeticly it wasn't, and that I'd have no problem in this order, where Romanian would be the last language displayed. Subsequently, I'd have no problem with German or Deutch, however you'd write it, being the first in that order.
(3) I don't think I claimed that, I was just pointing out that I'm not here to put a language over the 100 barrier just for the number. If, by chance, your vision of me or of the Romanian project will happen and there will be no one to continue it, I'd like to think that what I've done here was not for the number, but for the information that no other sites that I know will allow or keep for a long time to come. But if it'd happen, I'm saddened that you'd probably gloat over it. Life, ey?
And for your PS to Fred.... like I said, I've seen enough flames that start, are in the middle or end with "I'm sure the root admin is on my side, you're a rabid dog and everyone sees it because I see it". You seem to be new at this, so I'll give you a tip: it usually ends up the other way.... Anime addict 17:37, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
I urge Fred to create second level domains (/de, /ro, /it, /fr, /hr and others) for all the languages of the Wikinfo project, and the migration of all appropriate articles into those domains. I want those other languages to exist here and think it's wonderful that they do exist here, but throwing them all in the same bucket is obviously too controversial, too confusing and is leading to conflict and confusion (which we don't need here, since we all left WP for those reasons.) I hope Fred can find someone capable of doing this. - Nhprman 18:27, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

Inserts

I was also taken aback when I went to an English subject that had a German name and Mr. Mancala took it and made the article German. I am with Nhprman. There has to be an English article for terms. Isn't German Wikinfo have their own internet base? How come these aren't seperate? I don't mind that there are links back and forth but articles for English speakers should be all in English.WHEELER 20:48, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

WHEELER, the article wasn't made German. It was moved to another title (probably XXXX (English)). - Mr Mancala 03:49, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Continued discussion

"I already commented it and any person reading it would notice you're (in)directly attacking my language, its existance here, you're making future claims without basis and you're indirectly attacking my ability to continue this project, like it'd be some sort of whim of mine and yours is more of an mesiac sent to give the German language the place it already has in the world or something." - Sounds to me as if you are sick. If you believe that somebody has attacked you or your language, seek help. I didn't attack you and surely can't help you to get rid of your hallucinations, which don't become reality the more often you repeat them. I just stated that it's plain obvious that no Wikinfo language has crossed the 100 mark except English and German even if the language had existed for 3 years and more (the reasons for this failure should be explored because they are important for the success of Wikinfo as an international project). Even German Wikinfo would still have just 10 articles if I wouldn't have added 550 German articles in the last 12 months. The lack of maturity you display seems to confirm that the future of the Romanian Wikinfo is rather doubtful (to "doubt" s. th. is a personal opinion, which is clearly permitted), but please prove the opposite. It would be great if you could. I suggested Fred to make you sysop, btw, to give you all you need (and all I could do for you) to make the Romanian pages a success.

German is called and spelled Deutsch (not "Deutch"). But don't worry, I found your mistake funny.

"I'd like to think that what I've done here was (...) for the information that no other sites that I know will allow or keep for a long time to come." - Interesting. The article on the Romanian capital contains information "that no other sites allow to keep."? Mr Mancala 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Just one observation: you should know there are truths unaccepted around the world, that's one of the reason Wikinfo exists. You were sometimes "bragging" (that's my POV on it) about transferring info from de wikipedia which would be deleted (to be read "not allowed or kept") for political reasons. There's that double standard again. As for the insults, I have nothing to answer to. Anime addict 10:22, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
That's not the point and you know it.- Mr Mancala 12:51, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Look in the history, that was the point, but for some reason Nhprman deleted it. Guess it's a lot more insulting for some than calling one's opinions "delusional" and his behavior rabid. Anime addict 13:18, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
The above was restored after accidental roll-back. Anime addict, I know quite well what the point was because it was MY STATEMENT: "The article on the Romanian capital contains information "that no other sites allow to keep."? (just scroll up) So what is this myterious information? BTW, I couldn't find anything in the history that was deleted by Nhprman. - Mr Mancala 13:41, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Accidental *cough* restored... right, 7 minutes is just a second to observe *cough* Maybe it would have remained always burried if I hadn't "dramaticly" pointed out *cough* Sorry I can't assume good faith, but you are part of this discussion and directly involved, so it's too hard to believe it's a coincidence. I mean, it just happened to rollback a statement from someone who's ideas you called delusional and who you're obviously bent on getting banned, right? *cough*
According to your behavior you never seem to "assume good faith", not in this discussion. Your dummy edits would be considered by many as a sort of vandalism, particularly if they happen repeatedly and they were the reason that I couldn't restore your nonsense as fast as I wanted (data of the first attempt was lost because of your vandalism). - Mr Mancala 14:23, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
"Some argue" is not the best phrase you could come up with. I could also point out that Wikipedia, with its harsh rules on banning, obviously harsher that Wikinfo, does not believe. And shouldn't I talk about your minor edits every minute to correct one minor word that impediment my comments so often? Doesn't that clog the database more than 2 of my honest reactions to thinking I'm censored? Anime addict 14:47, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
PS after my "vandalism" it took you two minutes to revert two edits, but 5 minutes weren't enough to revert ONE edit? Yes, that makes perfect sense. Anime addict 14:47, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Also, here's what was so hidden and impossible to see... Not that it was the only edit of his in the first page of the history... nope, no way, there were like a thousand or so. Really... Anime addict 14:13, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
You're getting weird. As far as I can see Nhprman didn't delete anything (as you claimed), nor was anything "impossible to see". - Mr Mancala 14:23, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
I think someone needs a print, or is yellow blind (if that even exists). [2] Anime addict 14:47, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

"you're a rabid dog" - don't confuse the image you have got about yourself with my views of you. Mr Mancala 03:38, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Btw, my hope for Wikinfo is (was?) that it would replace Wikipedia some day (at least in some areas of interest), so the number of articles (besides quality etc) does matter in my opinion. - Mr Mancala 03:56, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
I think it's incredibly childish and immature of Mr Mancala to have made this into a personal issue between himself and me. I have said over and over again that I'm delighted that German language articles are here, as well as Romanian and other languages, so his claim that I am against other languages is bogus. Despite his turn towards personal attacks and rampages against English-language articles, I applaud Mr Mancala for all the work he's done on creating those 550+ German articles. The fact is that what I oppose is bundling all languages into one wiki and having people stumble onto them randomly, which is idiotic and a very flawed and cluttered model that simply will make this site unable to be navigated by anyone in any language. As I said before, it's insane to have a resource in which all German article subjects are only in German, and its required that one speak German in order to read them (and having the non-English article as the PRIMARY article, with secondary English articles, is not an improvement, it's just more complexity for readers to plow through.) The only rational way to do this is to have seperate wikis for each language, something with which Mr Mancala at one point said he agreed. - Nhprman 11:29, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
"his claim that I am against other languages is bogus. " - I never said (in the sweeping manner you impute) that you are "against other languages", I just stated the fact that you strive for the supremacy of the English language on Wikinfo (ie. English being the "default language"). Do you really think that Fred's opinion that "It makes very little difference" (how it is done) "idiotic", "flawed" and "insane"? Nobody had so far complained because of not being able to navigate and the (extended) search function on the left side of each page will prevent that your phantasies will ever become real. - Mr Mancala 12:51, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Actually, we create information. These many articles have all been created by people. Now I realize some people refuse to understand that we create information, but we do. We don't just cut at paste, sourcing earlier people who have created information.
  1. The manner in which information is presented is itself, informative. For example, we have articles about various organizations (or organisations if your prefer). When we have accumulated a number of similar, a list article is often generated. A list of articles is powerful because it indexes information for a reader's browse.
  2. Somewhat similarly, a language is (often) most dear to native speakers. But again, we create information. Wikinfo presents us with with opportunity to organize information, to create an organization of information. No matter how we index a spectrum of information (be it a list of religions, two opposing points of view, or a list of unspoken languages), it will always be possible to argue such organization is flawed, that such organization could improve.
  3. When an area of information becomes large, it might be time to re-evaluate its organization. For easier access, to find linked articles of interest or for other organizational reasons. How about sidebar or bottom template, linking a language's articles? That would make an easy search term for future re-organizations. And certainly the future brings changes, no matter how we do things for now. Terryeo 15:12, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
Yes, a sidebar can easily link to other Wikinfos in other languages, just as it does in Wikipedia. - Nhprman 20:34, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
FTW, Wikinfo started out as an alternative to Wikipedia which was English to begin with. I don't know how this can be melded with different languages. There are at least 30 major languages and to have each its own separate article on the same wiki will require a heading of all 30 major languages at the top of an article. A disambiguation page for each article? If we can't have separate platforms, we will have to use a disambiguation page.WHEELER 21:00, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

de.Wikinfo

We have to upgrade the software anyway. We could create a separate database for each language. It would then require interwiki links to link from one to the other. Downside, the links in English Wikipedia articles would no longer link to Wikipedia articles in other languages. Also we would probably have to use other prefixes than Wikipedia uses for Wikinfos in other languages. And rather than buy new urls for each language, perhaps we should simply make a commitment to ibiblio as a host. Fred Talk 21:13, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

I am afraid this would break up our community, however. Let's wait until there are a few hundred regular editors before we do that. However, if anyone wants to ask ibiblio for a Wikinfo in another language, I will support their application. Fred Talk 21:28, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
If you wait until there are a couple hundred editors, this encyclopedia will be unusable, since visitors putting in search terms will turn up thousands of random articles in either English, German, French or some other language, they will be utterly confused and will close the page and go over to Wikipedia. Separation will protect the German-language articles and allow that aspect to thrive. The same with Spanish and all the other languages. Don't be like Jimmy Wales who is an idiotic "libertarian" and runs WP by "laisse faire" and chaos theory, allowing the mob to dictate what this site will be (that turned Wikipedia into a place for several hundred little dictator/administrators to impose their will in that vacuum of leadership.) Make a decision, and if you wish, base it on consensus, which right now seems to be to separate these languages into workable projects. As for other prefixes, I see no reason to not use the standard international prefixes (de, ro, hr, etc.) They do not own these prefixes over at WP. - Nhprman 00:15, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
Can we simply think of this as "growing pains" and none of us get upset as we think of, post, and discuss potential solutions? We are only talking about how to organize data, after all. As a temporary solution, maybe we could add designator that groups a language's articles. A catagory might not be right. But some easily found, easily searched for term would make the job of organizing a language's articles easier. And worth keeping in mind, Nhprman, the nickle (or pence or whatever) comes out of Fred's pocket. It may seem very easy to direct from afar, but .. Terryeo 00:45, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
I remember at one point suggesting (or thinking about, anyway) that non-English articles be put in a category for easy searching, but that won't solve the problem of English speakers coming here and searching for a German term and finding an article they do not understand. I don't care where the nickel comes from, Terryeo, but if he wants people to keep coming here, contributing, and USING the site as a resource, he will solve this problem early on. Otherwise, this will be impossible to navigate and use very quickly. Even moreso after Mancala imports/creates another 1000 German-only main articles without English equivalents. Also, we have every right to suggest solutions to Fred, even STRONGLY suggest them, and that's all we've been doing. He can easily ignore the problem and hope it goes away. That's his right, clearly. - Nhprman 08:28, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
Actually this discussion isn't new at all. See what I've found in our archives. - Mr Mancala 03:28, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
I see so many pros and cons that I don't know where to begin with. I'd like to start with stating that Mr. Mancala would deserve a de.wikinfo if not for anything else, then just to get the overly-crowded and confusing German articles where they want and where they think they could thrive. Importing more than the DE articles would, however, in my oppinion, prove at least for the time being, either useless or unneeded. What's the use of making a subdomain (which someone - cause it wasn't clearly established who, although it is thought that Fred, which would put some more pressure on him, if not only financialy - would have to pay extra for) to a language that hosts 10-50 articles? I think the main issue should be for now at least, the languages with more than 500 articles which's procentage risks confusing the readers of this site.
Then there's other practical problems: manually moving over 500 articles, which will prove a high commitment for the one that does. And we must think, at least in the beginning, at the Google bounce too, the articles imported should have for at least the first month, or for as long as Google keeps in its cache, a link instead of the article, towards the subdomain articles, so Wikinfo can evoid the "?" paradox I mentioned to Fred a few hours ago.
Personally, as the founder of a portal and stuff for another language, I think, if its gonna be a move, I should wait until there are at least 100 articles, and preferably 500, until I'll think it's worth it in my part. Thanks. Anime addict 09:58, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
You make some good points. And in case Mr Mancala doesn't understand how much I appreciate and respect all his work in creating/moving over 500 articles in German on this site, I definitely do respect and appreciate it, and want to honor, preserve and protect his work with the creation of an entirely German-language Wiki. - Nhprman 11:12, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Question

I've been thinking of something for some time now, but I prefered not to go head-first on this, so I'm asking it here. About those articles that we import from Wikipedia, some on the verge of deletion, I'm pretty sure most of the times the main author is not aware of this and thinks his work is lost. I was wondering what is Wikipedia's policy is some of us go to the main author's of a deleted or preparing-to-be-deleted page and say "Hey, if you want to continue your work, we've imported your article to this page". Would Wikipedia consider this as spam/vandalism and a banning reason? Anime addict 12:59, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

How about a Wikipedia email to them? Fred Talk 13:14, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
Good idea, thanks! Anime addict 13:27, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

First come, first serve

Whoever first creates the article Sauerkraut may create it in whatever language they want. If an article is created in another language about sauerkraut, the second article shall have a different title which clearly disambiguates it from the first article. If there are two articles in different languages about sauerkraut, each shall have a prominent link at the top of the page to the other, in the language of the other. In other words, if the first article about sauerkraut is in German, then it will have a link at the top of the page: See also Sauerkraut (English) and vice versa.

No one shall delete or change the title of an article merely because the word or subject is native to one language or another in order to replace it with an article in another language. If an article in one language exists, it is the responsibility of whoever is creating a second article in a different language to create a disambiguating title and place appropriate notices at the top of both articles. A list of stock notices shall be created in each language Wikinfo uses at Wikinfo:Stock see also. Fred Talk 13:30, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

I've been away for a bit, but have noticed some of all this... seems that the ideal goal would be to have entries in all languages for each entry, but I assume we all agree on that. Will Dockery 19:04, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
We do agree. But the new procedure is this: If the first article for a given Place name is in Italian, then all other articles are "Place (English)" "Place (Deutsch)" and so on. So in other words, a person searching for a Place name may get it in German, Italian, Romanian, Croatian, or maybe even in English, THEN they can click on a link, which may read "Place in inglese" to get to the English page - a link that may not be that obvious what the person is supposed to do, since it will ALSO be in the native language of the article! This was Fred Bauer's idea, and is only slightly worse than Mr Mancala's idea (and he forced this issue to start with) which was, "If the article is about an Italian person, you have to learn Italian in order to read it." Which was a rather odd concept, and was called a "Language Supremecist" for suggesting all main articles should be in English - as nearly 40,000 are, while only 600 are in non-English languages, BTW. My suggestion is to do what Wikipedia does - have a separate wikinfo for each language, making it easy on those using them, which SHOULD be the goal. Any suggestions to fix this? Because Wikipedians who come here are going to LAUGH THEIR BUTTS off at this. - Nhprman 22:45, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
No, at the Italian article it would have at the top, see also "Place in English". Fred Talk 23:41, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
Well, I agree that's what *should* have been happening, but Mr Mancala has been putting "Artikel über _____ in Englisch." (of course, that's in German.) See Franz Kafka. - Nhprman
With the risk of reopening that can of worms, I disagree. We should have a consensus on main-level names or we're in for a lot of disputes about this. If I don't have any idea of what this product is named in Romanian and I make an article on the main name-space, does that make it right? Want it in Japanese/Czech/Hungarian/Swahili/Mamba-wamba-tamba-ramba-gamba-danga?.... I don't think so. My option stays with English on main-level names. Anime addict 13:51, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
There would be a prominent link at the top of any article in another language linking to the English article. The reason for all the conflicts between German and English is that English is German, just as Romanian is Latin. Fred Talk 13:56, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
You know your linguistic :) Ok, but the links should at least be in English, as in See also Sauerkraut in stead of Vezi şi Sauerkraut. Anime addict 14:02, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
Yes, we all need to have Mr. Mandala teach us how to make a notice which says, in German: See Sauerkraut for an article about sauerkraut in German. Fred Talk 14:07, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
I appreciate the ruling of Fred on this. However, I agree with Anime addict and think it's madness to have a mad dash to create articles in one's favorite language. It's a recipe for conflict and confusion - for us and for the users of this encylcopedia. It results in a mish-mash of an encyclopedia that is impossible to navigate. This is a cute little experiment, but it's going to result in much ridicule around the Internet, because it's an experiment in chaos theory, not in order (and here I thought that Germans LIKED order. Guess not.) I'm actually kind of appalled that we're going to actually be scrambling now to create the "real" article in one's favorite language. But I'm not going to engage in this debate any longer if that's what we're doing. It's too Wikipedia-like to be entangled in this kind of foolish debating all the time. - Nhprman 18:47, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
Heh, German "order" is meant to control Germans, who have a distinct proclivity for individuality. Fred Talk 21:15, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
I actually meant it as a genuine compliment. I greatly admire the German penchant for orderliness, scientific rigor, and precision in design. Think: BMW. - Nhprman 23:21, 25 July 2008 (EDT)
Sounds good to me, too. Terryeo 12:46, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
What I suggested had more" order" than the chaos Fred is inflicting on his site. Nhprman clearly suggested some kind of order, but it was a hierarchical order, not one fair to every language. Fred, you confuse order with stone age ethics ("First come, first serve"). You do not just control "Germans", you control everyone in the one-sided manner in which you decide everything here. I very much doubt that this will work for long. Most people leave Wikinfo pretty soon again. - Mr Mancala 14:52, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
I completely agree with you for once. But if German had a separate Wikinfo, the German users would be controlling their own site. Think about that for a moment. That's the way it should be. There's no "heirarchy" in my suggestion. Each language would have their own Wikinfo. The "main" Winkinfo would be a Splash page Wikipedia has, and the English Wikinfo would be at en.wikinfo.org. Each would be equal and fair to all languages. - Nhprman 16:12, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
You're free to do that if you wish; however, wikinfo.de is no longer available. They want $4,000 for wikinfo.com... Fred Talk 17:02, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
I expect the expense of de.wikinfo.org is far less than that. I wouldn't suggest getting .de or .it extentions for each project. I agree that it certainly would be quite expensive. - Nhprman 21:08, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

Disambiguation pages

The article on a subject in each language should serve as a disambiguation page for all other languages? Fred Talk 22:55, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

That was a suggestion I mentioned a bit earlier, and I suppose it would put to bed all the claims of "supremacy" of one language being over another, but someoene said it would be too difficult. I don't think it would. We could make a template similar to the one you have for Wikipedia, Wikicommons, etc, that we already use (the "{SS}" one). It would have all languages on it. Of course, the tricky part: all English articles would have to be renamed "Name (English)" to satisfy Mr Mancala's insistence that all articles be neutral (otherwise, English article names would be simply "Name" and others would have a language - (Deutsch) (Italia) etc. - appended to them and it would appear that English was the "main" language here. Frankly, since there are tens of thousands of English articles, the choice is a rather easy one, despite the hurt feelings it may engender. - Nhprman 23:20, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
I think the problem's kinda wrongly put. Rather, we should use the disambiguation pages "Name (Disambiguation)" for that (and could have a special subsection for "This article in other languages", as I already made on est) and the main pages "Name" for English. As Wheeler pointed out, if we have an entire line of other-languages related articles, now it may work, but when we'll have about 30 different-language articles, it's gonna get messy on the top of each one. Anime addict 10:40, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
I can't deny that it might look messy, that's true, and that's one strike against that solution. However, I'll add that if it's a template, links for new languages can be added at any time without any problem. - Nhprman 14:59, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
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